00:00 Introduction and guest background
01:22 What does an Irish session mean to Robert?
07:42 The moment Robert decided to pursue Irish music
11:34 Music as a source of joy and connection
15:34 Advice for beginners and newcomers
22:35 Overcoming nerves and self-consciousness
28:46 Technical tips: chords, tunings, and ornamentation
35:18 The importance of listening and contributing
42:02 Session etiquette and respecting the music
52:22 The community and cultural significance of Irish sessions
01:03:45 Final thoughts and Robert’s question for next guest
Conversational Transcript
*[This is an edited conversational transcript, lightly shaped for readability while keeping the spirit of the original conversation]
What does an Irish music session mean?
Tara:
Hello Robert Sommer, how are you doing?
Robert:
I am well today. Thank you for having me, Tara.
Tara:
It is such a pleasure to have you here.
You are based quite far from me, in the Kansas City area.
Robert:
That is right. I live just outside Kansas City in the States, and you are in County Donegal.
Tara:
Yes, that is where I am.
You are a guitar player. You have been a guitar player all your life, and you are retired now. You are also a newcomer to Irish music.
I am really interested in that perspective.
What does an Irish traditional music session mean to you?
Robert:
Given the wonderful legendary performers you have interviewed so far, I should say that I am just a rank-and-file session-goer.
I play in a local band called And So It Goes, and I have had that privilege as well.
I came to actually playing the music quite late.
It has been an unexpected journey for me.
This was not a turn I thought my world would take in retirement. The pandemic probably played a significant role.
I have loved this music all my life. I was listening to The Bothy Band, Patrick Street and so many great players back in the 1970s and 80s.
My wife and I have said for years that every day is St Patrick’s Day in our home, at least as far as the music goes.
So the music had great familiarity to me, but I had never been able to develop as a musician or focus on this music properly.
When my wife and I retired in 2020, and the pandemic hit, I thought: I am going to focus on this music and cultivate it.
At this stage of life, your attention becomes focused. You have to decide what you want to do and what matters.
I realised I could not do every kind of music.
I grew up, like many American youths, playing garage-band-style guitar. I had some lessons and some classical training, but I had never really cultivated Irish music.
The mysteries of the chord structures and sounds that people like Arty McGlynn could get were a complete mystery to me.
I thought, “You can learn this. You just have to understand what it is and focus on it.”
So I spent a long time doing that.
The isolation of the pandemic contributed. I had every afternoon to practise: hours of practice, listening to music, looking for sources, videos, books, anything that could help.
Over time, I began to understand the modes, alternate tunings and strumming techniques that are unique to Irish music.
Irish guitar has its own character. It is not like playing rock, folk or jazz. It has its own tone, quality and role.
The terror of going to a session
Robert:
The sessions were new.
I was extremely nervous about going to sessions.
There were some local jam sessions here, which were not technically Irish sessions, but I started going just to play ensemble music again.
When you play with other musicians, there are all sorts of compensations you need to allow for.
One of the session organisers here is Sabrina Hubert. She loves this music and is a terrific fiddle player.
She was at one of those jam sessions and said, “You have to come to one of the Irish sessions.”
I said, “I am not ready for that. Those people play without music. I cannot do that.”
So my wife and I went to dinner at a couple of the pubs where the session players were.
I would wave hello, but I did not participate.
Nobody in the session knew me.
I went back to the table and said to my wife, “I will never be able to play that. I will never be good enough.”
Eventually I went to a session.
I was terrified.
The players were playing sets of tunes. Everybody seemed to know where they were going.
This was over in Lawrence, Kansas, about thirty minutes west of here.
Outside, I ran into a guitarist I had seen playing with a local trio. I knew he was good.
I said, “Is it okay to come in and sit in? I have not done this before.”
He said, “Why do we not go out on the veranda and I will show you a couple of things?”
He was extraordinarily gracious.
That is one of the things that kept happening. People were really nice and welcoming.
We spent a while outside playing, and he showed me a few techniques.
I asked, “Is it okay if I bring music in?”
He said, “You can bring it in, but it is not going to do you any good.”
So I did not bother.
I thought, “Just wing it.”
And people were great.
That was how I started.
Tara:
You mentioned that you had listened to Irish music before and liked it already.
What was the hook where you thought, “This is the music I want to play”?
Robert:
Joy.
That is the shortest way to say it.
It gave me joy.
Even a solemn air or ballad engages you in such a way that there is joy.
With Irish music, I sense the history with it. The generations resonate in the music.
With traditional tunes, where we do not know who wrote them or how they evolved or travelled from player to player, there is this shared ownership.
And there is responsibility too.
You cannot betray this music.
This music requires truth.
That is instinctive or intuitive for me, and I think it is for many people.
Tara:
Guitar was actually my first instrument.
My sister started fiddle around the same time, and after she passed away, the fiddle teacher asked if I might like to learn on her fiddle.
That is how I started playing fiddle.
Maybe the music can be a relief from grief as well.
Robert:
It is funny about grief.
Sometimes you welcome it because the memory and spirit of your lost loved one is present in it.
My son passed away fourteen years ago.
He had wanted a Celtic design for a tattoo. It is not unusual for me, when I go to sessions, to think about how pleased he would be that I was doing this.
I always bring a little bit of him with me.
The music can completely focus your energy.
Here in the United States, we are going through a troubled time. The concerns do not leave us when we go to sessions, but they are put aside for a moment.
You need that relief.
You need to focus your energy in a way that is not political, not tearing at your emotions or worries.
The music does that.
Robert:
We have a strong Irish music tradition here in Kansas City.
Two session leaders here, Michael Dugger and Dave Agee, have made a big difference.
They are now my bandmates.
Michael is a button accordion player, and Dave plays many stringed instruments, mostly banjo, mandolin and fiddle.
They were members of Scartaglen, with Connie Dover, years ago.
Every time I am in rehearsal or on stage with them, I think, “I am playing with the guys from Scartaglen.”
It is a real privilege.
They also run sessions here and do a wonderful job of welcoming people in and rotating new music into the sessions.
There are sessions in a number of pubs and venues around Kansas City, and other local session leaders as well.
There is opportunity here.
Being intimidated by tune knowledge
Tara:
One thing I love about Irish traditional music is the quantity of quality musicians.
There are so many good musicians playing Irish music everywhere in the world.
Robert:
That was one of the intimidating things for me.
Not only were there good players, but they knew so many tunes.
Sabrina can hear a tune and play it. Michael learns tunes very quickly and brings new tunes to the sessions and the band.
They are always in an acquisitive mode, trying to gather new material.
The resources are endless. There are thousands and thousands of tunes.
It can be intimidating.
The session is not where you learn your instrument
Tara:
It was beautiful that people were kind to you and took you aside before you went in.
Maybe more experienced players could do that for learners or people from a different background.
Robert:
My experiences have been positive, so I do not want to be negative.
But the session is not a place to learn your instrument.
I have played guitar all my life, but there are specific techniques to playing Irish music well on the guitar.
If you just show up at a session saying, “I have an instrument,” or “I just started tin whistle,” that is not the place to try it out.
There are ways to develop your musicianship before you participate.
Seating can be limited too. If you are not ready to play, you might be taking the seat of someone who should be there.
That is important.
Robert:
Another experienced guitarist once pulled me aside.
Early on, I just wanted to hide in the back.
He said, “You have to know these keys, major and minor. You have to know them. You have to recognise them and figure out how to get into them. You have to know these modes.”
He said, “Once you have that, your ear is good enough that you can probably work your way into most things.”
He was right.
It was one of the best pieces of advice I got.
So I went back and asked, “How do the modes work?”
This is different from playing jazz. It is a whole different ballgame.
I mostly play in drop D, sometimes double drop D, and I have been developing more DADGAD.
I love players like John Doyle and Arty McGlynn.
Arty brought flat-picking to Irish guitar, and I love playing melodies on the guitar.
Not everyone appreciates that. Sometimes it is, “You have one job. Keep strumming.”
But I think earning your way into it matters.
Robert:
I remember being at a session in Lawrence.
I had been practising a melody at home. I really wanted to introduce it.
I do not remember the tune. It might have been The Morning Dew.
I worked hard on it.
At the session, there was a break, and I thought, “I will just start playing this.”
There were maybe a dozen people in the pub. It was loud: accordion, banjo, other guitars, people talking.
I started playing.
After a minute, I realised I was the only person playing.
No one in the pub was talking. No one was doing anything except listening to me.
That thought started whirling in my head.
Somewhere in the B part, the tune blew up on me.
My fingers all decided they had different agendas.
One of the session leaders picked it up and started playing, basically saving me from utter humiliation.
I was crushed.
A little later, when nobody was looking, I got my guitar, put it in the case, got in the car and went home.
A few hours later, Frank, who had been sitting beside me, called and asked, “Where did you go?”
I said, “I could not stand to be there any longer. I was so humiliated.”
He said, “About what?”
I said, “The tune.”
He said, “That happens to everybody. Nobody cared.”
I realised we were all still living and breathing, so maybe it was okay.
But I was so self-conscious.
It takes a long time to deal with that.
Thinking about yourself instead of the music
Tara:
We all have those experiences.
You start playing and think, “This is going well,” and then something goes wrong. Then the negative self-talk starts.
You think, “I will never play in public again,” instead of realising this is a phase everyone goes through.
Robert:
The grace and courage it takes to perform well is something we take for granted.
When someone is singing sean-nós and they are the only voice in the pub, and they carry on with grace, that takes so much confidence.
I think it is belief in the music.
Part of the problem for me was that I was thinking about myself instead of the music.
I was worried about other people listening rather than asking, “Am I being true to the sound?”
Learning to listen when you are not playing
Robert:
The sessions are a great way to work that out.
They are not a place to learn your instrument, but they are a place to try different things, get used to playing with others, and hear how others are playing.
One thing I noticed in sessions in Ireland was that when people were not playing, they were not doing anything else.
They were not having separate conversations or looking at their phones.
They were listening to the music.
If you are in the circle, that is what you are doing.
One of my little bugbears is when people in the circle start a separate conversation because they are not playing.
That is your opportunity to listen.
Hear the patterns in the music.
The sessions are also where I can develop technique.
If we are playing a tune that is also in the band repertoire, I can try different chord progressions, substitute chords or strumming techniques.
If I try a triplet strum and it blows up, I will be all right.
If it happens on stage, I am in trouble.
Robert:
In one session in Ireland, the session leader got up and told everyone in the pub to be quiet because someone was going to sing.
They did.
It was one big musical gathering for everyone in the pub.
That is different.
It is a unifying factor in the social life of the pub itself.
Tara:
That is common.
We might not say “shut up,” but we would say “ciúnas,” the Irish word for quiet.
There seems to be more reverence for the song in Ireland than outside Ireland.
Robert:
A lot of American guitarists come to the music with a certain understanding of chord progressions.
For example, in a normal folk open-position G chord, the third of the triad appears twice. There are two B notes in that chord.
In Irish music and modal playing, you often want to drop the third altogether.
The third is the strongest note in the triad.
So if you are asking, “Why can I not make my guitar sound like Arty McGlynn, John Doyle or Donogh Hennessy?” that is one reason.
You may be playing a chord position that is untenable for Irish music.
Learning how to mute those notes, or use different tunings, is part of the work.
DADGAD is common. I am developing that more.
The tunings and techniques are for getting closer to the sound of the music.
American garage-band guitarists often think you have to strum all six strings.
You do not.
Sometimes you only need three strings, or two.
You can double-stop a chord on the guitar. It is very effective.
Tara:
You mentioned strumming, the rhythmic side of the guitar.
What advice would you give?
Robert:
There are different strumming patterns for Irish music than for rock or folk.
In 4/4, you may be placing emphasis on the third beat.
One of the tricky things is playing jigs in 6/8.
The most frequent pattern I use is:
down, up, down, down, up, down.
It takes practice.
For jigs, it is one-two-three, one-two-three.
If you just strum up and down like you would for a Bob Dylan song, it will not have that Irish sound.
Tara:
You mentioned flat-picking. Is that when Arty McGlynn is picking out the tune?
Robert:
Yes, playing the melody.
Arty McGlynn’s album Arty McGlynn’s Fancy has him playing melodies on different tunes and sets.
He brings wonderful ornamentation to it.
He was innovative.
The Irish guitar itself is an innovation, an early twentieth-century addition.
It brought rhythm and accompaniment, almost like a mini-orchestra behind the melody players.
But the guitar player always has to remember: a fiddle player can stand on the corner and entertain people by herself.
She does not need anyone else.
The guitar player is an addition for her.
In every session I went to in Ireland, because I am a guitar player, someone asked, “Do you sing?”
The expectation is that a guitar player must be a singer because the guitar cannot do everything by itself.
My answer was no, but I said, “I would like to start a tune if I can.”
People were very gracious.
Tara:
What can a guitar add to a session? And what can it detract from?
Robert:
A guitar can add rhythm, depth and colour.
I try to sit so I am facing outward if I can, to project into the room rather than across the table to one fiddle player.
The guitar can reshape a melody.
Instead of playing a minor chord, I might substitute a major chord and see what happens. Maybe C major instead of E minor, or F major instead of A minor.
It can brighten the tune.
You cannot overuse those techniques, but they change the colour.
As far as detracting, the big challenge is too many guitars.
If there are three guitar players in a session, there probably needs to be trading off or laying back.
There is a DADGAD guitar player at one of our sessions, Karen, and we often make eye contact across the session as if to say, “No, you. No, you.”
We pick each other up a little bit.
Respect is important.
When rhythm goes sideways
Tara:
Sometimes it is not just numbers. Sometimes it is inability to get the rhythm.
Or drink can make the rhythm go in different directions.
Robert:
That can happen.
I was in a session in Ireland, and the session leader wanted to start a slip jig.
Some people started ribbing the regular guitar player because he hated playing slip jigs.
When we started playing, I found out why.
He had not really nailed that strumming technique.
It happened to be a slip jig I knew, so I was comfortable with the rhythm.
But with slip jigs, it can feel like there is always one extra measure coming in somewhere.
If you are not familiar with the 9/8 pattern, it can be hard to capture the rhythm.
Robert:
It took practice to hear the rhythm.
That is true for any instrument.
You need to hear the time signature and how the tune works.
Irish melodies can be confusing.
Where does the tune begin? Are those pickup notes, or is that the beginning of the tune?
I get messed up by that stuff all the time.
So you have to hear a tune a number of times.
One of the most important things I have learned is to develop my listening.
How well am I listening to what is being played?
Listen first before trying to play.
Listen to what the other players are doing.
Do not feel you have to plunge in right away.
Maybe start with double stops or a little tonal background rather than going all the way in.
The sessions have been enormously helpful for developing that.
Self-awareness in the session
Tara:
You seem to have developed a self-awareness about being in the session, what you contribute, and what you can contribute by doing more or less.
How did that develop?
Robert:
I do not want to have an overinflated sense of my own self-awareness.
There is always a sense that you want others to feel you are worthy, that you have something to offer.
It means a lot when someone pays a compliment or asks you to play something.
For me, fear was one of the motivating factors at the start.
I was terrified someone would notice I was there, tell me I was doing the wrong thing, or tell me to stop.
A session is a microcosm of the world.
There are different personalities, instruments, levels of technique and qualities.
A group of people come together, some strangers, some not, and when the tune starts, everyone is doing the same thing.
If they know the tune, they play.
If they do not, they listen and look for their opportunity.
This thing pulls people together.
When it is working, the music reflects it.
Tara:
You did a recce on the sessions first.
You and your wife went to dinner in the pubs where the music was on.
That is a useful thing to do.
Robert:
It was fear. Terror. Self-deprecation.
I felt unworthy.
Years ago, when I first started listening to trad music, I was astounded by sets of tunes.
How do musicians remember all of that?
They seemed like concerto soloists, playing massive amounts of music for seven or ten minutes.
It took me time to understand that they were learning one tune, then another, then stringing them together.
When I previewed sessions before joining, I was back in that same mode.
They know all these tunes. I am not going to know what to do. I do not want to embarrass myself.
I thought I would have one shot, and if I did not belong, they would tell me to get lost.
That was not true.
But those thoughts were operating inside my head.
We are often our own worst enemies.
Fear and different coping mechanisms
Tara:
People might have those thoughts in their head and use a different coping mechanism.
You did a recce and sat back to learn more.
Other people might go in defensively and think, “You cannot tell me what to do.”
Robert:
I suppose that is true.
What we have run into sometimes is people showing up because they have an instrument at home and think an open session means they can just play.
They may not know the tunes or technique.
If they cannot play, they might sit and chat.
A good session does not do that.
It focuses on the music.
There is socialising between tunes, and that is a lot of fun.
Insults and sarcasm are a love language. That banter is part of the enjoyment.
But if I am not enjoying myself, I do not want to be there.
There is nothing keeping me there other than friendships and the music itself.
If it became counterproductive to that, I would have to reckon with it.
When someone is not ready
Robert:
Sometimes musicians, or people who are not ready to be musicians, show up while still learning their instrument.
It is hard to deal with that.
You do not want to insult anybody or be unfriendly.
But sometimes the answer is: you are not ready yet.
Learn your instrument, then come back.
Or hang out and listen.
Buy a beer and listen to the music.
Tara:
When you are open to learning, people really engage with you.
They want to help you become part of the session.
A good session focuses on the music and enjoyment, and you want everyone to enjoy that, not just the few in the middle.
Robert:
Exactly.
The people nearby at the tables should be enjoying it too.
If you pick up that vibe, the session is probably cooking the way it should.
The role of the session leader
Tara:
A lot of questionnaire responses mention people not feeling welcome, or feeling like they are in the way.
It is useful to know that the people they are self-conscious about may actually want them to succeed.
Robert:
Some of that has to do with the tone the session leaders set.
People look for the guidepost in a new situation.
The session leader does a lot to make people feel welcome.
But it does not exonerate anyone else from being a decent human being.
At a reception or cocktail party, you want people to feel welcome.
The same dynamic takes place in a music session.
In Ireland, every session leader I met made me feel welcome. They asked my name, told me where it was okay to sit, called out keys, decided beforehand what they were going to play, or asked me to play something.
The session leader sets the tone.
Automatic distrust of new backers
Tara:
One advanced player wrote in saying that their biggest challenge is automatic distrust of new backers, even though they have recorded and toured with some of the best musicians.
What would you advise?
Robert:
I would not presume to advise him.
But if you are sitting in, you have to see what the dynamic is and whether there is a comfortable place for you.
With guitar players, you can have too many guitars. The same with bodhráns.
If they are not in sync, it may not work.
You may be doing different things, substitute chords or playing the rhythm differently.
There has to be fairness, trading off and awareness of others.
Some of it simply comes down to human decency and courtesy.
If there is distrust, there may also be a lack of courtesy in the room.
Modes
Tara:
One questionnaire response asked about modes: Dorian, Mixolydian and so on.
You seem familiar with the technical side.
Robert:
A guitarist told me early on that I needed to know the modes.
Ionian, Dorian, Mixolydian and Aeolian.
You need to know those four.
They make a huge difference in how the tune sounds and how you support it.
Mixolydian and Dorian are very common in Irish music.
Alternate tunings help with that process too.
I take some abuse from other players because I read music, and you are not supposed to read music if you play Irish music.
That is baloney.
I will use any tool I can get to improve.
Tara:
I read music too, although it is like a muscle that needs exercise.
I studied music, but I have not read much since then.
If someone gives me sheet music now, I play through it slowly, record myself, and learn it from my own recording.
Robert:
Recording yourself is important.
The Session.org is also an incredibly valuable resource.
For someone like me trying to compress a lot into four or five years, resources are critical.
I could not learn as many tunes as I feel comfortable with now without those resources.
Tara:
Danny Meehan once pulled me aside at a session and said, “Tara, it is time you started to enjoy your own music.”
It was transformational.
I had been playing for others, thinking about how they wanted me to play.
Then I realised this is my journey and my enjoyment, but I still cannot take away from others.
It is about what we add together.
Robert:
The music does not have real truth if you do not have yourself invested in it.
It has to be your own voice.
There is a quote attributed to Miles Davis: “I tried all the other voices, then I found my own.”
I love listening to John Doyle, but it does nobody any good for me to imitate him.
You have to find the sound you want to make and how you want to produce it.
The most surprising thing
Tara:
The mystery question from the previous guest is:
What is the most outrageous incident you have ever witnessed at a session?
Robert:
Outrageous does not really describe my experience.
Nothing like a bar-room brawl has happened.
The most surprising thing that happened was after I had been going to sessions for a while.
Michael Dugger asked me to talk about the Kansas City Irish Fest.
That is a big deal here.
A lot of big musicians fly in for it.
I thought, “You want to talk to me about Irish Fest? Really? Me?”
We formed a duo and played local pubs, events and private parties.
Then I was invited to join And So It Goes, the band Michael put together with David Agee and Dennis Lucas, our bodhrán player.
It has been a real privilege to be with those guys because they have so much history playing professionally.
I never imagined that at this point in my life I would be doing anything like that.
Last year, the whole band played the Irish Fest, and we are playing it again this year.
Playing in pubs without drinking
Robert:
It is funny because I do not drink.
So the idea that I go to bars regularly is strange.
But I have a blast.
There is a photograph of me with a glass of Guinness in front of me, but I was not drinking that beer.
It just seems to go with the turf.
Tara:
I do not really drink either.
Sometimes the acoustics in pubs happen to be good. Irish music seems to gravitate towards those spaces.
Robert:
That is true.
Another thing is that many people in the pub are having conversations and their own social life while the music is happening.
That can make it easier.
You think, “Nobody is listening, so if I muff a chord, nobody will notice.”
Maybe they do, but it seems like they do not.
That helps you relax.
Tara:
And then you play better.
Robert:
Absolutely.
Robert Sommer’s episode matters because he speaks from the doorway.
He is not looking back on decades of growing up inside Irish sessions. He is describing what it feels like to approach them from the outside, with love for the music, fear of getting it wrong, and a real desire to understand the sound before claiming a place in it.
That perspective is valuable.
A lot of people who come to Irish music later in life are not careless. They are not entitled. They are terrified.
They sit at the edge of the room thinking everyone else knows everything. They hear sets of tunes and imagine some impossible memory test. They worry that one wrong chord, one wrong rhythm, one exposed moment will prove they do not belong.
Robert’s story shows another way in.
Listen first.
Go to the pub before you join.
Watch the session.
Ask questions.
Let someone show you a few things.
Learn your instrument before using the session as your classroom.
Understand the role of your instrument in the sound.
Then, when you do join, keep listening.
His guitar perspective is especially useful because accompaniment can shape a session for better or worse. A good backer adds rhythm, colour, lift and support. A careless backer can flatten the tune, fight the mode, crowd the rhythm or take up space without adding to the music.
Robert’s best advice may be technical, but it is also cultural: listen first.
Listen before playing.
Listen when you are not playing.
Listen to the mode, the rhythm, the melody, the singer, the room and the people around you.
That is how fear becomes awareness.
And awareness is what allows a newcomer to become part of the music without getting in the way of it.
*Produced & recorded by Tara Connaghan and edited by Anita Alvarez Santos
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