00:00 Introduction to Deirdre Scanlan
01:50 The Essence of Irish Music Sessions
05:35 Understanding Traditional Singing
09:15 Emotional Connection in Music
12:51 Gender Perspectives in Music Expression
15:31 The Evolution of Tradition
17:14 Variations in Singing vs. Instrumental Performance
22:57 Teaching and Learning in Music
28:24 Navigating Music Sessions
30:46 Navigating Session Etiquette
33:39 Understanding Session Dynamics
36:15 The Role of Personal Experience in Sessions
38:24 Baggage and Expectations in Musical Spaces
40:48 Inclusivity and Participation in Sessions
44:26 The Pressure of Performance and Hosting
47:45 Diverse Motivations in Musical Sessions
51:20 Finding Value in Every Session
54:16 Session Behaviour and Respect
56:20 Exploring Session Dynamics and Imposter Syndrome
58:22 The Art of Participation in Musical Sessions
01:01:22 Navigating Social Expectations in Irish Music
01:04:01 Understanding Personal Motivations in Musical Engagement
01:06:56 Supporting Others in Musical Settings
01:09:47 Final Thoughts and Personal Connections to Music
Conversational Transcript
*[This is an edited conversational transcript, lightly shaped for readability while keeping the spirit of the original conversation]
Tara:
Deirdre Scanlan, how are you doing?
Tell me a bit about yourself, rather than me doing the introduction today.
Deirdre:
My name is Deirdre Scanlan.
I am from Ballina, County Tipperary, living in the village of Ballina-Killaloe.
They are twin towns, or twin villages, on the River Shannon.
My dad was from Killaloe and came across the water to marry my mum just outside Ballina.
We have a farm, and I grew up there.
My father’s family were big into singing, so my sisters and I went down the usual route of Irish dancing lessons, music lessons and singing when we were younger.
I got more into the singing as I got older.
I competed in Fleadhs and Scór, qualified as a primary school teacher, then went off for a few years with Solas, the Irish-American band in the States.
Then I came back to primary school teaching.
In June, I officially left primary school teaching. I resigned my position, but everyone thinks I retired, so I am going along with it.
I am now full-time at the music, teaching traditional singing, fiddle, tin whistle and guitar, and doing some teaching and lecturing in the Irish World Academy in the University of Limerick.
That is me.
What does an Irish music session mean?
Tara:
What does an Irish music session mean to you?
Deirdre:
Hopefully it means fun and craic.
A few hours of bliss, playing music.
It involves people, naturally. There are going to be other people. It is community participation.
I run a session every Sunday here in Ballina, and I absolutely love singing being involved in it.
If somebody gets up and dances, even better.
For me, it is nearly a variety show.
When we talk about sessions, it is not just music. It is not just jigs and reels.
It is every type of tune anyone wants to do, and fun, and whoever joins in participates at a level they are comfortable with.
For me personally, it is a break from the normality of life into somewhere I can escape.
Tunes and songs.
That is my happy time.
Tradition is a box with no walls
Tara:
You have worked with competition, teaching and the university.
Do you see a difference between those spaces?
Deirdre:
Working with students in UL, I make sure they have an idea of what I believe traditional singing is.
I think you only get to know tradition when you are in it for a long time and have experiences not just of your own tradition, but of other traditions and regions.
I like to say you can put tradition in a box, but the box has no walls and no top.
There are no sides or lid, but you still have a fair idea of what the box should consist of.
I know what tradition is.
But I also know that it is constantly growing, expanding and retracting at the same time.
There are people who push against what everyone thinks is the norm, but that is what we have always done with tradition.
That is always what has happened.
Where the box started is a long way from where the box is now, and where the box will eventually be.
It should keep growing.
But you also need the people saying, “Hang on a second,” pulling us back in a little bit so we can evaluate exactly what is going on.
Do the mad stuff.
Do the wild stuff.
Because if it contains the true elements of tradition, it will stick.
What is traditional singing?
Tara:
If I were an alien who landed on Earth, how would you explain traditional singing?
Deirdre:
It is an unaccompanied art form of song.
You are using story and melody to tell a story.
The basic job of the singer is to tell a story.
What makes it traditional is that it is rooted in our history, society and the themes we have carried through time.
It is very expressive, but very individual.
It is an individual, unaccompanied form of traditional singing where the singer is the boss.
The song controls the singer and the interpretation, but we interpret it based on our experiences.
So it is very personal.
Slow airs, vulnerability and internal feeling
Tara:
Does a slow air have a similar feel?
Deirdre:
It can, if there is a story behind it.
Some slow airs are given a name but do not really have a story behind them.
But I do feel you need to connect emotionally with a slow air when you play it.
You can only do that if you understand what you are trying to transmit.
What is the slow air about?
Is it a love story? A tragedy? Loss? Hope?
If you can internalise it and feel it, irrespective of the instrument, it will come out of you.
It is not even to do with how good you are.
I have heard amazing musicians who just cannot play airs.
It is a very individual form. You nearly have to expose yourself when you are playing an air to get that across.
Tara:
You need to show your vulnerability.
Deirdre:
I think so.
For me, a traditional singer, or someone playing an air, has to feel it.
We do not need the drama. We do not need the faces.
It is internalised.
You take on the form of the person telling the story, or you take on their feelings.
If it is an old man singing the song, I am the old man.
If it is a woman talking about someone she has lost, and I have never lost someone in that way, I am still empathising and drawing on experiences.
That makes it difficult to work with youngsters, because you do not want to re-traumatise people.
If you are asking someone to connect internally with emotion, you need to be aware of what that person or child has been through before you go digging.
Songs that take you somewhere
Tara:
There is a slow air I play about a drowning, and I have to go into a dark place.
When I come out of it, it takes a while to get back into playing.
Deirdre:
I do not have to get traumatised every time I sing a song, or be that in love every time I sing a love song.
But it is tapping into something internal.
There are a couple of songs I sing where I need to move away after I sing them.
I would not be able to do another song straight after.
At singing sessions, I time them, and then I do not want anyone to talk to me for a few seconds, or maybe a couple of minutes.
It is not drama.
There are songs that hit because of circumstances in my life.
It may not even relate directly to the story. It is just something about the song that takes me to that place, and I need time to come back.
But I do not avoid the songs.
You cannot avoid them, because that is the magic.
When you feel that inside you, and especially when you get feedback from an audience, or even in a session, and you know you have tapped into something in them as well, that is special.
Putting language on what musicians feel
Deirdre:
We all connect with ourselves and project in different ways.
I would not judge someone because I get emotional singing a song and they do not.
It is such a personal art form.
This can happen with every art form.
Maybe I have just thought about it a lot and put language on it.
Some listeners might be thinking, “That is why I feel tired after playing that tune,” or “That is why I do not feel like doing another song after that one.”
Maybe it is just being more self-aware about what is happening inside us.
The internet, recordings and variation
Deirdre:
My fear with traditional singing is that for so long it was oral and aural.
You heard it, said it, expressed it and learned it that way.
Then it started getting recorded, which was fabulous.
That is why we have songs written down, recorded and staff-notated.
But sometimes I fear the internet.
Because it connects so widely, does one version suddenly become the version?
If I sing a version of a song and type those words up, is that now the version?
Would someone say, “Deirdre Scanlan sang it like that, so you cannot do anything else with it”?
That would upset me.
I could learn a song from Rita Gallagher and change a few words without realising because they are not in my vernacular.
The song still works.
Maybe they are Donegal words, and I put in Tipperary words, without damaging the essence, beauty, message or story of the song.
Recordings are fabulous. The internet is wonderful.
But before the internet and records, people kept this tradition alive by spreading it.
We did not always pick it up perfectly.
That is why we have variations and versions, and the same air on twenty different songs.
People could not remember, but the melody was popular in the area, so they put the words to it and it worked.
Tara:
How much variation is there in a song?
Is it like a tune?
Deirdre:
Maybe not to the same extent, because of the time involved.
If you play a two-part reel three times, you are talking about maybe two and a half minutes. You have to get variations in there.
In singing, the song could be four minutes, and I would call that short, or anything between six and eight minutes.
You have an audience that might stay with you for three and a half minutes, and after that you need to employ a few tricks to recapture their imagination.
So initially you might use ornamentation to highlight long vowel notes.
An ornament is to make something prettier, or to stress something.
With songs, I think it is very important to set down the pattern first.
Set down what the song is.
Get people in.
If you start from the beginning with loads of variations, nobody knows where you are going.
You have to lull people in first.
If it is a five-verse song, set up the pattern in the first two verses.
In verse three, throw something in. Maybe nothing too crazy, but enough that people, who have started thinking about the shopping or an itch in their leg, come back into the room.
They are expecting something, then you do something different.
Suddenly they are back with you.
Then you can start showing off if you want, because you have established the pattern and they are listening again.
Tunes, songs and natural variation
Tara:
I would find it hard to play a tune without varying it naturally.
To me, it is like a conversation. I would not say the same sentence exactly the same way every time.
If I had to perform the tune the same way, it would be difficult because I would be pulling back my natural way of talking.
Then I wonder, am I showing off?
Deirdre:
No, but I am coming from a singer’s point of view.
The most important thing I have to do is get the story out.
There are words and emotions involved.
With tunes, I do not think about it the same way.
If I am playing, I am just playing for the craic.
If I do a variation, the box player I play with might look over and say, “That was nice.”
And I will say, “What? Why?”
I would not have a clue what I did.
With a slow air, you might think more about the variations and why you are doing them.
But in reels and jigs, it may be more natural, like speaking.
Teaching children and adults
Tara:
Do you teach children, adults, or a mix?
Deirdre:
A mix.
My youngest student is five. She has been coming to me for a year now.
My oldest students are definitely north of fifty.
For adults, the challenge is confidence, and understanding how and when.
For youngsters, I run a session once a month.
It is not just for my students. It is open, and students from other teachers and schools come in.
We use a round system. Everyone can pick a tune, and we all play it.
If somebody picks your tune, it does not matter.
Some of mine are still only on Peg Ryan’s Polka and The Dawning of the Day, so we might play those several times. I do not care.
Participation is key.
Participating at your level is key.
If you can play every tune, fantastic.
If you have three tunes, I will make sure we keep going back so you get to play.
Deirdre:
Adults are different.
Many of the people I work with played as youngsters, then had children. The children took part in Fleadhs, and the parents became Fleadh mammies or Fleadh daddies.
Then the children grew up and did not need Mammy or Daddy to drive them to sessions, but Mammy and Daddy still loved the sessions and wanted to participate again.
So they have an idea of how to play the instrument, but they have to rebuild repertoire and confidence.
I started an adult session once a month.
I facilitate it rather than teach.
I send out one or two tunes each month. We are nearly nine years going now, so we have a good basis of tunes.
If you do the tunes and come to the session, you will get to play them.
Then we use a round system.
I try to know the tunes people pick so they have backup.
How do you know you are welcome?
Deirdre:
In a general session, there are issues.
How do you know you are welcome?
How do you know you can play?
The obvious thing is to go in and suss out the session.
Just because you have an instrument does not mean you are entitled to join in.
As a mark of respect, I would not.
If I am at a festival, I go in with my fiddle, sit at the bar, and listen.
Do I know enough of the repertoire to join successfully?
Or do I sit out and actually learn?
I love listening.
I am a better listener when I am sitting away from the session because when I am in the session, I get paranoid.
If I see anyone coming in with an instrument, I am gone.
Come in. Sit down. Play.
That might come from music, or from being a singer, but I love listening to tunes.
If it is a crowd of musicians whose tunes I do not know, I will happily sit.
If I am invited in, I will go in and join.
Follow the lead of the musicians in charge
Deirdre:
I grew up with sessions.
I grew up going to sessions where I knew people, so the minute I walked in the door, I hopped on the stool and played.
But we were trained by watching older musicians.
If you go into a foreign session, meaning a session not from around your own area, you follow the lead of the musicians who seem to be in charge.
If you watch for a set or two, you can figure out who the big cheeses are.
Ask, if nobody invites you.
If I see any kind of bag that looks like an instrument, I am saying, “Get in here.”
That is me. I am all about participation.
But if you are going to a session and want to join in, have a few tunes ready.
Do not just know one polka and one jig.
Have two jigs ready. Have two polkas. Put them together.
Then if you are asked, you can start a set.
One tune does not make a set.
In a normal session, we do not just play one tune.
We may play one tune seven times, but we do not just play one tune.
Moving from learner sessions to normal sessions
Tara:
A person might be used to a round-robin session and then expect that in every session.
How does someone move from that into a normal session?
Deirdre:
By staying outside the session and observing first.
Do not just think, “There is a trad session on. I have a flute. I am going to sit down.”
Take a few minutes.
It might take five minutes. It might take ten.
If it is a new session in your town, take a week.
Go and listen first.
I live half an hour or forty minutes from Ennis. I am not going down to Ennis with my fiddle and just sitting in.
I know some of the people, but I still would not land myself straight into the session.
I would go in, get a drink at the bar, and listen.
If I am asked to sing, I know that next time I am likely to be welcome again.
If my singing is welcome, next time I may come with my fiddle, but I will still wait to be invited in.
Every session is different.
Every host is different.
Some sessions are very open. Some are very closed.
That may not be attitude or self-importance. It might be that the host is quiet, shy, or not confident asking people in.
Or it could be that they have been stung by people who came in and ruined lovely sessions.
You cannot judge everything from one or two bad experiences.
Deirdre:
You and I have been at this for forty years.
If we count up our bad experiences, they are going to be far fewer than someone who comes in at our age or in their thirties, goes to three sessions and finds them horrible.
Keep going.
You will find your space.
Not expecting to be asked
Tara:
I hear from people around the world who come to Ireland with cases and expect to be invited in.
Then they are taken aback when they are not.
Deirdre:
It is not personal.
There could be any number of things.
At a festival, the musicians might be excited because they have been thrown together and have not played together before.
They might be thinking, “I cannot believe I am playing with this person.”
From the outside, you might feel excluded, but it could just be excitement.
So, as somebody from the outside going in, get over yourself a little bit.
If you get into a session, participate as much as you can.
Talk with the people around you.
If you are two rows back and start a tune, and the inside circle starts another tune, maybe they did not hear you.
Deirdre:
It is hard to explain to adults coming into it.
Yes, sessions are friendly.
Yes, they are welcoming most of the time.
But there are an awful lot of things that are inferred and not said.
Do not be too precious about whether you join a session or not.
Take something from it.
Why did it not work for you?
Was it the people involved? The situation? The pub? What you brought into the session?
Did something happen before you got there?
Do not just blame the people there.
You do not know what kind of day they have had, and they do not know what kind of day you have had.
We all bring ourselves in.
For me, sessions are my happy place.
But I can be an absolute bee if somebody comes in ruining my vibe.
We bring baggage into sessions
Tara:
I try not to expect that I will be asked, because if I am not asked, I can feel unwanted.
If we remove the expectation, we do not get let down.
Deirdre:
We bring baggage with us to all social situations.
Why would sessions be different?
You can make them inclusive by how you join.
Talk to the person beside you.
Ask, “What was that tune?”
You may already know the name, but it starts a conversation.
Maybe that person beside you needs that connection too.
We often feel that when we go into sessions, everyone knows everybody and there is a game plan.
Nobody has a clue what is going on.
It is not anti-foreigner, anti-beginner or anti-learner.
It is about how you put yourself forward.
If you come in brashly, asking to play this or that, it can be too much.
Or if you start a slow air after a rocking set of reels where the energy needs to keep building, you have not read the room.
That applies to singers too.
I have seen singers who have their party piece ready, and it does not matter what the vibe of the session is.
They are going to sing their party piece.
Read the room.
Why session etiquette is for everybody
Tara:
The title of the website is sessionetiquette.com.
Some people say the words are off-putting, but my aim is that those words should not be off-putting.
They are for everybody.
Not just people who are new or learning.
Deirdre:
So much has been unspoken over the years.
This is a place for a conversation.
Not that I am right and you are wrong, or you are right and I am wrong.
This is how I see it.
I know a lot of people do not agree with me because I will take the waifs and strays in off the street to play tunes.
They may ruin the session and I will say, “Sure, there is always next week.”
Nobody died.
Not everybody thinks the same.
Not everybody feels the same.
For some people, it is a job.
There are pub owners who only want background noise. They want trad because it brings people in to drink.
They are not necessarily wanting twenty people to join the session.
You look at the space as well.
Does it suit having more people join?
If there are microphones in front of the players, I am not joining.
That is nearly a gig.
But if there are no microphones and the session is interactive, that is different.
Hosting and looking after the whole room
Tara:
When I am paid to host a session where there will be people of different standards, I feel pressure to make sure everybody gets a bit of love.
But sometimes the people I usually play with, the stronger players beside me, get left out because I am trying to mind everyone else.
Deirdre:
You are like the mother hen minding the chicks.
The other hens are running around you and you think, “They are fine. They are well able to cope.”
But you forget about the people beside you.
Questions make experienced musicians think
Deirdre:
When you have been at it as long as we have, questions make us learn.
Somebody asks a question and we have to think about why we do what we do.
We have to reframe it.
There is no such thing as a stupid question.
There may be stupid answers, but not stupid questions.
Can you change people’s motivations?
Tara:
One listener asks about sessions where musicians have very different motivations.
Some are there socially, with a few tunes and little interest in improving.
Others are there to improve knowledge, skills and understanding.
Can we move those motivations closer together?
Deirdre:
My initial reaction is that the person is way overthinking the session.
Just go in and do what you do, and let everyone else do what they do.
Trying to make people want to increase repertoire when all they want is to participate and play the same tunes every week is not the aim.
Those tunes may give them joy and lift their week.
You cannot change people’s motivations, and that should not be your aim.
The aim should be: how can you adjust to the people you are with?
How do you need to relax or accept the people around you?
If it is not your bag of cats, maybe look for a different session rather than trying to make people fit what you believe the session should be.
That sounds more like a you issue than a session issue.
Participation at your level
Deirdre:
Even if you are hosting, you will drive yourself daft trying to please everybody.
Host the way you host.
If people want to talk while you are playing tunes you think they should be listening to, let them talk.
Maybe that is fulfilling a need they have.
It may not be what I need or what I would like.
Then I get around to them and ask, “What tunes would you like to play?”
If it is the same tunes they play every time, I do not care.
I smile and say, “Lovely. I love those tunes.”
And genuinely I do, because they get something out of it.
It is not laziness.
Some people may learn forty tunes and still play the same two when called on.
It goes back to everybody participating at their level.
You are part of a time and space with other people.
How you engage with it is up to you.
What you take from it is up to you.
The value of stories in a session
Tara:
We once had a small session where we asked someone if they wanted to play a tune.
They said no.
We asked if there was anything else they would like to do.
They said they might tell a story about a tune.
It was brilliant.
His face blossomed because he felt valued in the session.
Deirdre:
There is a word for that.
He could be involved in the session and feel valued.
That is it.
There are different ways to be part of the tradition.
It has a box, but it does not fit in a box.
It is very hard if you are coming in after five years of learning into a space where someone has twenty or forty years.
But it is not age.
There are eighteen or nineteen-year-olds who have been playing for ten or eleven years and grew up in sessions.
They have experience meeting different people, playing in different situations, and hopefully intergenerationally.
I hope I have not sounded ageist.
I know nothing.
I am constantly learning.
That is how we should all be.
Observing, looking, listening, watching and caring.
Tuning down when musicians walk in
Tara:
Here is a question from an advanced professional musician.
They went into a pub with friends carrying instruments, and immediately the whole session started detuning and playing in B.
Would you consider this proper session behaviour?
Deirdre:
No, unless you are not liked, or you and your friends have a reputation for ruining sessions.
But it sounds like they are professional and the session had an attitude issue.
That is desperate.
Unless they had already decided to tune down and it was bad timing.
Maybe they had already planned, “We will play this last set, then tune down for the craic.”
But if it was a definite reaction, I would wonder who you annoyed in the session.
Or maybe the crowd playing were a bunch of knobs.
There is a lot unknown in that story.
The person should write back in and give us part two.
Tara:
I get imposter syndrome going into sessions.
If I am asked, I will often do the Irish thing of refusing twice and accepting the third time.
Deirdre:
If I am asked, I am hopping in.
I decided that as a youngster.
I watched singers being asked to sing, doing the Mrs Doyle routine: “No, go on, no.”
I got over that.
If someone says, “Deirdre, sing a song,” I say, “Okay.”
I have a reputation for being ready, but I am never waiting to be asked.
I am much happier not to be asked.
But if you ask me, I will sing.
Unless I say no.
And if I say no, there is a reason.
I am sick, sore or sorry for myself.
What are you looking for in a session?
Deirdre:
When you go into a session, what are you looking for?
Are you looking to participate?
Are you looking to be lauded and applauded?
Are you needing something?
Are you seeking comfort, sensory input, acknowledgement?
What are your motivations?
If they are not met, is that really the session’s fault?
Or did you expect too much?
Tara:
A lot of people want belonging in a session.
That is one of the things I see people most anxious about.
Deirdre:
They feel like they should get that because they join in.
But the reason I have belonging is because I have been playing with certain people for ten years, or we played as teenagers together, or we did a Comhaltas tour, or taught at Scoil Éigse together and sat in many sessions.
There are different ways we connect with people.
When you just land into a session, you may want to be part of it, but you cannot expect that straight away.
That is a growth thing.
That is interaction.
That is cultivated over time.
Forgive us if the minute you sit down, you are not asked to play.
We may take a few minutes to suss you out.
Are you listening?
Or the minute we start playing, are you on your phone because you are only waiting to play your tune?
Helping someone play better
Deirdre:
There was a flute player who joined a session, and his rhythm was not great.
If you caught him before he started, you could hold him.
We would ask what tune he wanted, let him play a little bit, then the box player would start it so we had the timing and rhythm.
Then he was perfect.
Otherwise it could start and finish within a minute.
I am a teacher, so I want to get the best out of people.
There is a fine line because you can insult people, and I would never want that.
But every now and then, I will tailor it so there is a set of tunes where someone is one hundred percent successful.
That makes them feel better because they have played better.
Tara:
The previous guest left a question.
If you could play only a session with one other instrument of any ability for the rest of time, what instrument would it be?
Deirdre:
I would have to be specific.
I would say box, but it would have to be a Paolo Soprani.
There is nothing like the warmth and wall of sound that comes out of a Paolo.
I have played with enough players whose rhythm is not great, but I am a teacher.
I can work with them.
But I would have to say box.
Tara:
And it is the rhythm too. A lot of box players have great rhythm.
Deirdre:
Oh, yeah.
Deirdre Scanlan’s episode brings the singer’s perspective into the centre of the session conversation.
That matters.
Sessions are often discussed as if they are only about tunes, tempo, repertoire and instruments. Deirdre widens the frame. A session, for her, can hold tunes, songs, stories, dancing, jokes, listening, participation and silence.
It is not just a machine for producing reels.
Her strongest image is tradition as a box with no walls and no lid.
That is a useful way to think about Irish traditional music. Tradition is not fixed and dead. It grows, shifts, absorbs and adapts. But that does not mean anything goes. You still need to know what the box is made of. You still need to understand the shape of the thing before you start pushing at its edges.
That same idea runs through her advice on sessions.
You do not walk in and assume the session owes you belonging.
You observe.
You listen.
You work out who is leading, what the repertoire is, what kind of night it is, and whether you can add to it.
If you are asked in, go in. If you are not asked, do not turn it into a wound immediately.
It may not be personal.
The musicians may be excited, tired, shy, protective, distracted, recovering from a bad week, or simply deep in their own musical conversation.
Deirdre’s advice is blunt: do not be too precious.
Take something from the session, even if you do not play.
Ask what the tune was.
Talk to the person beside you.
Listen.
Find your space.
She is also clear that participation has many forms. A person can contribute with a tune, a song, a story, a bit of listening, or the simple act of being part of the room. Not everyone has the same motivation, and trying to force everyone into your idea of a proper session will only drive you mad.
At the same time, her generosity is not shapeless.
She believes in preparation. Have a few sets ready. Know that one tune does not make a set. Do not assume a learner session and a high-level session work the same way. Do not bring your party piece into the wrong moment. Read the room.
That is the balance in this conversation.
The session can be open, but not careless.
The tradition can grow, but not lose itself.
And belonging is real, but it is cultivated over time.
*Produced & recorded by Tara Connaghan and edited by Anita Alvarez Santos
*Transcript assistance was given by Darragh Ó hÉiligh.
Deirdre Scanlan
The Holly Hughes Podcast
Session Etiquette Questionnaire
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